Categorized | Campaigns

IS NORMAN FINKELSTEIN EMBRACING ZIONISM ?

NOVANEWS

Arguing the Boycott Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) Campaign with Norman Finkelstein from HuffPoMonitor on Vimeo.

Apparently Finkelstein asked initially that it be taken down, as he realized that it was destructive. It was but a number of Zionist sites re-uploaded it, so it’s entered circulation.

Comment:

My initial thoughts after watching and reading.

I didn’t take it that Norman was saying that he supported israel per se. I understood it that if you want to call upon the international law to protect the rights of the Palestinians then they’ll have a much stronger case as an official, internationally recognized state. They’ll be much closer to the “inner ring”, a place at the table so to speak. It would make it easier for countries to feel they could legitimately criticize israel and support Palestine.
The argument that the israelis would use if the true intentions of a chunk the BDS were known, namely, the cessation/destruction of the state of israel, could then be turned on it’s head and the israelis true intention, the cessation/destruction of the new Palestinian state, would be far more recognizable to the general public. Thus creating an in road for a greater public empathy and mass movement for the rights of the Palestinians.

His example of the Troubles in Ireland were an example of how the discourse has moved on, since the recognition of Sinn Féin. It’s been a while since I’ve heard the Irish people mentioned in the same sentence as terrorism by the MSM.
Is it his opinion that, “it’s a window of opportunity” that could well lead to cessation of heavy violence perpetrated by the israelis on the Palestinians and an international isolation and gradual disintegration of israel?

Gilad says: “More and more people out there grasp that the continuum between Israel, AIPAC and the Conservative Friends of Israel (CFI) is the biggest threat to world peace.” In my life mixing with the throng, I unfortunately don’t see/hear the evidence for this. You could offer a thousand pounds in used notes to virtually any passing member of the public to write 2 paragraphs on AIPAC or the CFI and I doubt you’d get any takers. Don’t get me wrong, I wish it wasn’t so – I’m just a working class nobody and it’s taken years and a huge amount of effort to struggle through the zio propaganda brambles, attracting many puzzled looks and rejections from acquaintances along the way.
Yes, in London, people may be more aware, as I can testify having squatted and been politically active there.
The political cult aspect is a serious problem to me and groups are so easily manipulated. As Gilad has mentioned in his book, the jewish influence in the political left is massive and subtle. I remember sitting in a anti edl/fascist meeting and felt too uncomfortable to bring up some research I’d found out about the zionist edl connection, because of the “mention anything to do with the jews, in a negative way, and you’re a nazi scum” undercurrent that runs through most left politics, that prevents the whole story being told. I found Gilads, Fagin vs Einstein bit, enlightening.

For me, it goes without saying it’s the Palestinians alone to make the choices for their future and it’s for us to support them. As you say Roy:”Eternity in a refugee camp is unacceptable, end of.”

  1. I find myself in complete agreement with your analysis. Whilst watching it I found myself quite perplexed as to why NF would be advocating anyone recognise Israel’s right to exist in accordance with international law when it (Int.Law) is continually disregarded by Israel itself. It is as you very rightly state:

    “an aggressive, expansionist, racist and exclusivist nuclear Jewish State”

    and undeniably a danger to the rest of the world. It is most definitely neither ethical nor sensible for it to exist as it does – the Israelis have quite clearly demonstrated their inability to co-exist with others on an equal footing and this must change.

  2. Roy BardLog in to Reply

    February 16, 2012 at 6:26 pm

    I saw this and thought of Norm and his law fetish:

    Because the law is congealed power, any consensus which emerges in it reflects priorities of those exercising power rather than resisting it

    We know that Zionists work hard to limit the debate and shut down the discourse. So the public gets to hear a limited range of options in an oppressor controlled discourse.

    Norm thinks we can get politicians to do the right thing…. I’m not so sure. I think our job is to push the Palestinian position – who the hell has the right to say that Jews were entitled to come from Europe and mug them of their land at gunpoint?

    To assert Israel’s right to retain the spoils is to accept the racist premise behind that mugging.

    Eternity in a refugee camp is unacceptable, end of.

  3. Gilad AtzmonLog in to Reply

    February 17, 2012 at 9:38 am

    I also do not think that Finkelstein has become a Zionist or a supporter of Israel. He is producing a valid political analysis, yet being slightly autistic is capacity to understand the extent of international affairs is obviously limited.

    A friend pointed to me yesterday that like Dershowitz, Finki always thinks in legal terms, he is somehow impervious to justice or ethical thinking. Is it a coincidence? i don’t think so.

    Finki also manages to dismiss the tidal wave of popular resentment to the Jewish State in the region and beyond. Is it a coincidence? Again, I don’t think so..

    However, if the solidarity movement is a pluralist and tolerant movement, it should debate and tolerate Finkelstein’s ideas and criticism.

    Yesterday I came across an exchange between Jewish BDS activists who already set a campaign to destroy Finikelstein. Such an act affirms my fears that BDS would become a Judeo-centric Stalinist instrument instead of a genuine Palestinian solidarity campaign.

  4. fool me once…Log in to Reply

    February 17, 2012 at 6:04 pm

    “…yet being slightly autistic his capacity to understand the extent of international affairs is obviously limited.”
    Ha ha, as opposed to the non autistic? I think an explanation here wouldn’t go amiss.
    Your comment linking both Dershowitz and Finklestein, to being impervious to justice and ethical thinking, I find a little harsh on Finklestein. I would suggest Finklestein’s exposé of the holocaust industry was largely motivated by ethical thinking.
    Are you suggesting Dershowitz is also a mild autistic?
    Where does that leave yourself and Greenstein?
    Not saying it’s a bad thing, but, there is certainly an obsessive bent revolving around “the jew”, linking all four of you.
    There are plenty of interesting threads and posts regarding jews and autism on the net.
    An alternative way to view Finklestein and Dershowitz, could be, as a real life Sherlock and Moriarty, and we all know who we’d prefer the winner to be.

  5. Roy BardLog in to Reply

    February 17, 2012 at 6:48 pm

    According to duffer22o5, who says he is Frank Barat (and the two identities do seem to tie in together):

    Finkelstein himself asked me to remove video, because “it did some harm” (mainly to his reputation).

    And despite the fact that Finki would consign the Palestinians to a 5th of their historic homeland (if they’re lucky) Barat identifies him as ‘pro-Palestinian’.

    It would be fascinating to know what harm Finki thought the video did, and if he thought there was a way of making his point which didn’t do that harm.

    Fool me once said:

    I understood it that if you want to call upon the international law to protect the rights of the Palestinians then they’ll have a much stronger case as an official, internationally recognized state. They’ll be much closer to the “inner ring”, a place at the table so to speak. It would make it easier for countries to feel they could legitimately criticize israel and support Palestine.

    But for me the problem seems to be that being at that table would means ceding most of the historic Palestinian homeland to Israel. Besides the fact that a consensus for that could never be reached amongst the Palestinians, it would seem to mean that major Palestinian rights under International Law would already have been sacrificed.

  6. fool me once…Log in to Reply

    February 18, 2012 at 12:00 am

    @ Gilad – hey, I re-read our posts and think I was a bit off with you. I apologize, I felt defensive for Finklestein, as in the video he came across to me as a man who, as he says, was tired, probably close to burn out. I perceived your “autistic” comment as a low blow on someone who is sincere and has put themselves in the zio cross hairs for decades highlighting the Palestinian cause and exposing the zionist propaganda.
    @ Roy – My quote you use, is my initial interpretation of what I heard in the video. I agree with your point. To be clear, I stand with the vast majority of any peoples under occupation – that there should be a total removal of said occupier. As you know, the problem is the transition to that point, from where we are now.

    • Roy BardLog in to Reply

      February 18, 2012 at 2:22 am

      I don’t know about ‘total removal’of the occupier. It seems to make sense that those born there should be able to stay there if they desire. I’m really not that keen on borders, nor on hard and fast rules….

      Maybe it’s because I’m a South African…..

      In any case, I think the law is neither clear nor fair.

      For Finkelstein to depict the law as the source of justice and right is simply at odds with the evidence of one’s senses

      It would be good if he could imagine himself as someone who had been repatriated to a camp in the West Bank, and who had been brought up to believe his home was in Jaffa or Haifa, say?

      • Gilad AtzmonLog in to Reply

        February 18, 2012 at 2:40 am

        Hey fool me, i wasn’t ignoring you… I am touring now for the next 6 weeks and hardly get a chance to communicate.. the autistic reference wasn’t an insult, just an observation.

        If anything, in my piece, I support Finki right to express his thoughts and ideas. The fact that some Jewish BDS activists try to silence him his outrageous but symptomatic to J identity politics..for more than a while they exploit BDS as a Judeo centric vetting instrument. It is indeed a shame.

      • fool me once…Log in to Reply

        February 18, 2012 at 9:52 pm

        @Roy…. “It seems to make sense that those born there should be able to stay..”
        And their parents, who weren’t born there, have to leave? I don’t think that’s gonna go down too well with the occupiers tribe mentality. The occupying parental indoctrinators have sown their poison seeds and I think there would be a dangerous, constant state of friction in an already volatile place.
        I would think for the Palestinians to have to accept sharing their land with the IDF (3 million+ fit for military service) the perpetrators of 70years of terror and viewing them as equal citizens in a Palestinian one state, just wouldn’t wash. (I’m not sure if you’re suggesting that?) Too much bad blood.
        “I’m really not that keen on borders…I’m a South African… ” With respect, could you expand on this apparent contradiction. Surely you would be from the south of Africa?
        I agree with your last sentence, “It would be good if he…” where as, the israelis don’t have to imagine executing this injustice, it’s been their modus operandi since day one.
        “Finkelstein himself asked me to remove video, because “it did some harm” (mainly to his reputation).” – Is the interpretation contained within the brackets accurate? – can it be verified that Finklestein’s reason for requesting to “hide” the video was to protect his reputation? Or was the “mainly” opinion, offered by Frank, an attempt to try and save face and push the knife to the hilt?
        Cheers

        • Roy BardLog in to Reply

          February 19, 2012 at 4:55 am

          FMO…: “And their parents, who weren’t born there, have to leave? I don’t think that’s gonna go down too well with the occupiers tribe mentality. The occupying parental indoctrinators have sown their poison seeds and I think there would be a dangerous, constant state of friction in an already volatile place.”

          Hey, Israel has been in existence since 1948 – for some there is literally nowhere else to go. I think many Jews would choose to leave if the historic homeland of Palestine became a place where there was equality, but for some it is home. it is all they know, and all they want.

          FMO…: “I would think for the Palestinians to have to accept sharing their land with the IDF (3 million+ fit for military service) the perpetrators of 70years of terror and viewing them as equal citizens in a Palestinian one state, just wouldn’t wash. (I’m not sure if you’re suggesting that?) Too much bad blood.”

          Think South Africa …. I am not convinced that the Palestinians hate the Israeli Jews nearly as much as the Israeli Jews hate them. Given a choice between reconciliation and occupation, would reconciliation with peace and equality not seem like the preferable of the two?

          FMO…: With respect, could you expand on this apparent contradiction. Surely you would be from the south of Africa?

          I am, but the borders that divide humanity and spawn despotic regimes are still firmly in place. Without a British passport I feel them very keenly. I want to go back to Palestine so much, and I cannot…. I can’t even go to Amsterdam :-/

          FMO…: “I agree with your last sentence, “It would be good if he…” where as, the israelis don’t have to imagine executing this injustice, it’s been their modus operandi since day one.”

          Until Israelis can imagine what it feels like to be a Palestinian refugee, they are robbed of a bit of their humanity, no?

          FMO…: “Or was the “mainly” opinion, offered by Frank, an attempt to try and save face and push the knife to the hilt?”

          I would love to see them record another interview where they reflect on that one. Sure it may be Frank’s perspective and it may not reflect what Norm thinks. I wish Norm would let us know where he is at now. Don’t you?

          • fool me once…Log in to Reply

            February 20, 2012 at 1:33 am

            Balanced, humanity based answers, I hear you Roy.
            “I wish Norm would let us know where he is at now. Don’t you?” – I’m waiting with coffee and bakky scented breath. (uurrh!)

    • Roy BardLog in to Reply

      February 19, 2012 at 9:13 am

      Virginia Tilley response also worth a read:http://unpetrified-opinion.blogspot.com.au/2012/02/response-to-norman-finkelstein.html

      some activists do tune their positions to what they think the majority wants to hear, eschewing stands that “lack support”. They may believe themselves pragmatic, but I call these folks “human rights entrepreneurs”, as they are essentially market-oriented. Like courtiers, they position themselves just behind the cutting edge, with a keen eye for trends, so they can surf a wave they didn’t actually have the courage or insight to create themselves.

      (My ‘human rights entrepreneur’ of the week would be Mr. Hugh Lanning – How about you? )

  7. ariadnaLog in to Reply

    February 20, 2012 at 2:11 am

    I would not place Norm Finkelstein (NF) in the same sentence with the Dersh for the purposes of any comparison. I consider the latter a person without a moral conscience, wheraes NF is a moral man who happens to have a cumbersome blind spot, similar rather to the one Uri Avneri (UA) has.
    Both NF and UA are zionists. Earnest anti-zionist zionists…

    Both have grappled with the reality that as a “state for Jews,” Israel has never been and can never be a democracy and, unfortunately, in their inner forum… they won.
    There are always “specifics” to blame but the center holds for them.
    In their writings and speeches they try to put forth their personal myth, that zionism has betrayed its luminous goals but that is can have a humane face, it can be … nice.

    Both run as hard as they can in their asymptotic trajectory confident that at some point they will arrive at the destination, there, where wishful thinking meets the absurd and becomes reality.

  8. Paul EisenLog in to Reply

    February 20, 2012 at 9:10 am

    ariadna

    I thought that was a really perceptive analysis. It’s put into words what I’ve been wondering about for some time – the complex inner realities for very decent Zionists like Finkelstein and Avnery. Many thanks.

    I suspect others may take a very different view.

 

Comments are closed.

Shoah’s pages

www.shoah.org.uk

KEEP SHOAH UP AND RUNNING

February 2012
M T W T F S S
« Jan   Mar »
 12345
6789101112
13141516171819
20212223242526
272829